[FEAT BC Admin]

In this discussion area, please feel free to share your experience in implementing A.B.A. programs in the school system. We would particularly like to hear from those parents who converted their school teams to A.B.A. We’d like to hear the nightmares as well as the success stories.

Any insight that can be shared by school-based special education assistants to help parents would also be very meaningful.

Topic

[Joanna Ng]

Hi FEATERs!

I can't tell how happy I am to see such a lively FEAT board. It's never been this active since I joined the community 2 years ago.

I appreciate parents like Ducky [what a cute name!], David Chan and Dave to share their info and discussion openly because unless it's confidential, why not? Everyone benefits from it.

There is no need to say how hard and tiring life is when we have a child on the spectrum and parents who spent time typing this heck of info do not do it for fun.

The very first thing my child's experience taught me is: NEVER abdicate my role as a parent, advocate to anyone else. I trusted my family doctor, he failed my son. Then the pediatrician; he failed us even more miserably! My previous BC; no need to mention. At the end of the day, no one cares for my child more than I do!

Therefore IMO, no matter how great a system is, if the parent, I, am not in control or at least a key player in decision-making – then system is not working properly for my child's best interests. Parents are key players thanks to HEWKO!

Is not Democracy championed for that reason? People's rights? But people don't even care to vote anymore. I have heard reasons such as: "Oh, I don't believe in human governments". Or "I don't like any of the parties." Or "I don't think they are worthy of my vote."

Well, you know what? It is true we cannot control the outcome of everything we do. However, had we not try to work it out, we'll never know the results, be it advocacy or election day.

But when I see how hard my little child works in his ABA program and in life – I know all my work is worthwhile!!!

[Dave Collyer]

Hi folks,

Ducky, I don't think anyone has anything "against" Hewko. I am sure we all found that particular legal decision to be very encouraging. My caution to parents is to know the limits of the decision and the implications for using it when talking with school based admin..

re "How does 1000 hours of someone else's child help with someone totally different? "

From my perspective the person with 1000 hours will arrive with knowledge and skills developed under supervision. They will be able to quickly adopt and adapt to the specific program your child works in. We have had therapists that work with our son who also have four or five clients. They follow the programs that are specific to each child and they do so quickly. My point is that it is the program that serves to establish instructional control… not the person. Yes the therapist needs to establish themselves as credible in the eyes of the child but this can be established relatively quickly (after a testing period).

re. Instructional Control – yup. We agree. It is key. Ideally there will be a seamless transition from home to school with the key Therapist transitioning from home to school. However, I also think it is possible for a skilled ABA SEA (should the district have such a person) to quickly establish Instructional Control if he or she implements programs designed by a qualified consultant and supervised by said consultant in the school environment. This is different from on the job training to establish skills and theory. It is similar to having a new therapist join your team who has skills developed over the years of work he or she has done with other families. We have had a number of such workers join our teams over the years and they quickly fit in with the wrinkles our son's program presents and quickly establish instructional control (after a week or so of our son "TESTING" them).

re. "1000" hours. On top of ensuring that potential candidates have skills… It actually serves a covert purpose – the districts using this standard simply do not have skilled ABA therapists with this level of experience. This opens the process up for hiring of home based therapists. :0) It will, one day, be possible that the districts will have therapists on staff with this level of qualification. In such a situation the "infra-structure" gap the Justice refers to in Hewko will have been bridged which may also be a good thing.

I do get your point and hope… you would like to have the option or choice of selecting from your home based team whom will work with your child at school. I do think that this will be a particularly difficult option to see districts accept and adopt as policy – not that it cannot be done – just that getting it done will be a challenge. There is a responsibility on the part of the School System to ensure that their staff meet certain criteria (CRC which we all should do, minimal skill sets working with children etc). Perhaps some sort of half way point might be easier to work out. One in which the District allows the parent to "nominate" a candidate who would then be screened by the District for credentials and skills, and if meeting them would be accepted. Issues will continue to arise though with union postings and seniority. In each case of the District hiring from our home team the posting has gone "external" (open to anyone with the qualifications to apply to) as no internal candidates meeting the job description criteria have been on staff. Once posted externally our home based therapists can apply and each time they have been hired. We are about to attempt a mid-late year repeat as our son's SEA (previously our home program's therapist) has injured her elbow (off the job). It will be an interesting situation as the wheels turn slowly.

re. "poaching" of therapists. Happens all the time. A private school hired away a super super super lead and our son's school based SEA. So sad to see her move on BUT it was in her best interest to seek out new situations so she could continue to grow and develop skills. (We miss you A.O. – lol) We've also lost therapists to other families over the years… it is part of life. Shrug. Move on. Find and train another. Oh heh… we've lost 5 therapists to the dreaded Masters in ABA programs. We train 'em they move on to graduate work to become consultants. Good for us all in the long run but a real drag to find another and another and another super awesome therapist to replace them with. Sad-Happy moments.

Anyway, this forum formate does not lend itself well to "debates". So slow. No immediate feedback so you can check w the other person about what they meant or intended to say. Hope things work out for you. Know that to bring ABA into the schools have succeeded in the past (Surrey, Victoria, Nanaimo, possibly North Shore). Each has it's own wrinkles and issues but ABA is happening in schools and is being successful at addressing needs. It can work. It is working. Keep on keeping on.

D.

[J.Graham]

Hi Roxanne,

Why the animosity and personal attacks? Why are you concerned if Ducky is this posters name?
Does it really matter? No it doesn’t…
I read those posts as someone passing along info that worked for them to other parents. This is a good thing…
Dave Chan simply did what was best for his child at the time.
We did the same 2 years ago… by leaving the public school system and homeschooling through an Independent school.
We have never looked back… my Consultant and I write the IEP and my sons team follows it.
The money that the Ministy gives the Public school for my child, that was never used for my child is now with the Independent school and we see $15,000 plus of that a year to use to educate him properly.
No more dangerous 'safety plans' put into place without our approval, no more uneducated people wasting my childs time and no more empty promises and stress.
This fits for my child… he's happy, we have intructional control, he has a chiuld specific program designed especially for him that we can adjust whenever necessary and most of all… he's learning. That's the ultimate prize isnt it?
Also, were not broke anymore…
How a parent gets there is a personal choice… we all want the same thing and we are all on the same side.
The right to an education for all kids should be a given, but it is not. There are pockets of communities in BC that are still in the dark ages, some are in the lower mainland. Some are still exactly where they were 14 years ago. That’s why there is no 'one size fits all' here.
I tried to fight the fight in the public system, but at some point I had to weigh the critical loss of time it was taking from my sons learning and winning. So I bailed… others have too.
I'm still part of the fight though, but without my sons involvement on a day to day basis.

I understand and truly feel your frustration Roxanne and everyone here, our kids deserve so much more and some have been fighting so long their hearts are so very heavy, mine is too, but the only way we can get there together is through open discussion and hearing what might have worked for those successful parents and building on that.
I'm certainly not saying one can't disagree… that wouldn't be healthy. But not listening is not creating an open environment for discussion and solutions either. That goes for all opinions.
Together, we are so much stronger…

Jen

[Ducky Piyo]

Hi

There have been replies about Instructional control a previous post and for Parents this has been some type of debate depending how one looks at it.

But Dr. Melvin deLevie answers it best:

Autism is a medical condition that requires its medical treatement of ABA.

Dr. Sabrina Freeman confirms that ABA is a medical treatment because…

ABA Lovaas **(Applied Behavioral Analysis) is THE scientifically proven medically necessary treatment for Autism.

** Choice of ABA is still the Parent's perogative and I think FEAT has been sensitive to this. But certainly nobody can deny ABA that was created by Dr. Lovaas is what put the acronym A.B.A. on the lips of people everywhere.

Dr. Melvin deLevie shared his expertise in that "we don't negotiate the dose of insulin for diabetics".

And so why is instructional control up for discussion?

Each child with Autism requires their appropriate individual dose of ABA treatment.

The identity of the EA including their ABA background is essential because they are delivering ABA medical treatment to our kids.

I say "Instructional Control" always because Hewko clarifies that

"On the job training is no substitute for having basic training"

Remember Instructional Control is not Functional Control. Babysitters are not qualified to deliver medcial treatments.

Piyo

[Ducky Piyo]

This posting was rather interesting?

"As a Surrey parent who has greatly benefited from the work of parents before me, I am dedicated to paying it forward by helping to "feed the system". Many other families in Surrey as well hire and groom therapists to go into the school system as ABA Support Workers.

Below…. this point caught my attention
***********************************************

"We sometimes lose therapists off of our teams when they enter the school system with another child but it is worth it to strengthen the ABA
community and have another child in the district receive appropriate support".

***********************************************

This is a very important piece of information.

Where is the instructional control? Perhaps in 15 hours of familiarization training? How does 1000 hours of someone else's child help with someone totally different?

I learned something new today.

Piyo

[Ducky Piyo]

Hi there,

I am pretty confused here why you all are so concerned about the Hewko. It's objective is to help our kids secure an education and not to foster an argument.

What works in one district does not work in another. One size does not fit all because so far nobody is sitting down to include any Parents in any districts since ABA was implemented in Surrey or Victoria.

There is no stroke of luck. A district implementing ABA in to the system have obviously worked out a two way street. It has to benefit both Parents and Districts. There is simply no free lunch people.

Each Parent that works so hard deserve to have choice!!!

You make choices over a cup of coffee, how you want your options on your car (if you're fortunate enough to buy new), and most have choice to pick their spouse, no?

So why wouldn't there be choice about accessing education? For 6 hours of the day, our kids are out of our control. We ought to choose wisely.

What is wrong with choice? What is acceptable to some Parents is not necessarily acceptable to other Parents.

I post to offer people info so they know what's out there and don't waste time. But I certainly don't appreciate the flow of emails against Hewko.

Regulation of support services is not here yet in BC. Yes even patchwork in various districts.

Parents are hard working individuals that deserve info/feedback to make a life altering choice for THEIR child. It certainly would help Parents that decide to uproot their entire household to move to a certain school or area because they believe this is a good school. It also helps desperate parents to know their struggle is not alone because there's many of us asking the same questions.

As a Parent that is also in our shoes, I am shocked at your tone of email to another Parent.

What we probably would like to know is why Mr. Ryan put ABA in to the system in Surrey. Maybe that would be helpful for all of us because it sounds like the most ideal situation.

ALL PARENTS with Autistic children would move heaven and earth to ensure a good quality education and appropriate support at school and in the community.

To be truly respectful of Autism and their families, CHOICE is absolutely necessary!

Thank you for allowing me to post my personal opinions.

Piyo

[David Chan]

Very true Rox, we really did just do the bob and weave into the independent school system.

The observation that I can make about out experience is that the few layers of bureaucracy we had the deal with allowed us to implement whatever we needed to do.

The attitude was at the time, if it works, let's do it. It was very kid centric. It's not enough that P is out of high school. For every Mr. P graduating, there is STILL, a six year old getting sent home for WCB reasons.

My frustration is people. We have data, we have districts that have successful models, Why is it so hard to sell. And why oh why is it such a patch work across the province.

Things are a little better now than it was 14 years ago, but we just have to keep pushing.

in the words of Tiny Tim

God Bless us, everyone.

Dave
Mr. P's Dad

[Brad & Roxanne Black]

David Chan, didn't you leave the public system for private? And "Ducky" (???) trust me, the Surrey parents would move heaven and earth to ensure our kids get exactly what they need. We are a solid group who fight for our own children plus advocate for others in Surrey, we banded together and made it happen. With over 1000 hours if someone doesn't have instructional control I think we would have fired them at about 100 hours or for me personally much much less.

[David Chan]

First let me say that I did a Captain Kirk with respect to school. I did a Kobyashi Maru. ( you trekkies will understand this reference) . I cheated, I just MADE it all work for Mr. P. I don't have the aggregate experience in public school that any or all of you have. We took Mr. P to Kindergarten, and Grade 1. No School in Grade 2, and Back in independent school from Grade 3 to 12.

So whatever my observations I make are based on those two short years in the public system. I'm sure that in the years since, many policies have been put in place to make our children's life better, but that said, my kid was almost out of Elementary school when Hewko commenced.

Rules and policies are great, it's people I don't trust. I have said many many times, the first casualty of the Autism Wars is innocence. I was so wounded by my school experience that having rules in place doesn't make me feel any better about our children's future in the public school system.

Implementation is done on the ground. Please don't think I'm being an apologist for the school system, I'm not. For every child's parent are fighting tooth and nail to get a trained aide for their kid, I don't even being to know how many kids are dropped off at school with not diagnostics, and no plan in place.

I do understand the school's situation, because they are between the devil and the deep blue sea. They can implement any thing they want, but if there is no follow-through at home, then it's all for naught. ABA families live in the opposite universe. We have plans from home, but no follow-through at school.

A late pastor of mine made this comment to me, it was about the second Vatican council, and the liturgy. In his case he was educated before the the Second Vatican council, and ordained right after it. What he said was, “Everything that was forbidden is now mandatory”. Such is the mutable nature of rules, and ABA implementation. Whether it's church canon, or school district policies, these matters will be ever changing.

Bottom line, the children need to be protected, and nurtured in school. Legal precedence is useful, but it just there to help litigation. My observation about people in general is that they don't like to be told what to do, and they will fight vigorous to defend that position.

Just look at the ABA/FEAT parents, we were told this is what's available, take it, like it, it's good for your child. Look how hard we fought. Why would the opposition to oppose us with any less zeal.

Just because you're right doesn't mean that people will do what's right. Systemic change will come, I have to believe it, or I wouldn't have spent my time an effort to make those legal changes. It's glacial. That said the fight is far from over.

By the grace of G_d we are no longer doing the school piece. But there will many more curves in the road ahead to be sure. I never pray for miraculous outcomes, just the fortitude to conitinue fighting.

Once again, I have to repeat this famous quote attributed to many people.

“The price of liberty is eternal vigilance”

Fight the good fight people.

Dave
Mr. P's Dad

[Dave Collyer]

Can we please upgrade this forums software? EDIT options at least? Bring it up to at least the year 2000 forum BBS software?

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