[FEAT BC Admin]

This area is for discussions in general topics.

Topic

[Maureen St. Cyr]

Dear Anonymous-the-Latest:

First of all, good for you for keeping your team and child anonymous and confidential. That is as it should always be.

As for the rest, it is admirable that you care enough to want the child to have the very best treatment program he/she can. Yes, it's frustrating to see opportunities for improvement going unexploited. Bravo for wanting to make a change. So here is my two cents on what you can do:

1) Talk to the consultant. Quietly, diplomatically, confidentially, let her/him know where your concerns lie and see what he/she says. There may be factors you don't know about, or you may be bang on and the consultant may not even be aware — not good for a consultant, but it happens.

2) Talk to the parents. Underline the diplomacy. Remember that we parents have more on our plates than you could ever imagine, and we all try our hardest. The parents may not be as uninvolved as you think — it may just look that way for the hours you are there. You might think I'm "uninvolved" because I'm frequently busy doing other things when Ariel is working with her team. But you'd be wrong, because I do a lot of work when the team aren't there, and a lot more behind the scene.

3) Speak up at team meetings. Again, remember feelings. Remember your ABA training (you get somewhere by praising the good and extinguishing the bad, far faster than trying to jack everyone up by your bootstraps). But also remember that's what team meetings are for — to discuss where programs are working, where they aren't, and where they can be improved.

I'm sure I'm forgetting a few, but those are the main areas I think you can have a good effect on the situation, beyond, of course, doing the best therapy you possibly can.

Avery
Ariel's Dad

[Deleted User]

I am a therapist who's heard about ABA about half a year ago. I feel that I've learned a lot about this type of therapy and believe that every autistic child should be given this treatment to learn as much as they can from it. However, as my experience and appreciation for ABA grows, so does my frustration. I am working on a team where most of the therapists don't seem to "get it." Other than the fact that it's awful for a team to be nearly oblivious to the way ABA works, what irritates me even more is the child's parents being uninvolved.

It's heartbreaking to know that the child could be learning so much more if only the parents knew what ABA is all about. It seems like such a fruitless investment for the parents to pay for therapy, not only because the therapy itself is mediocre, but because the child isn't even given the opportunity to learn anything outside the therapy room.

As one of many line therapists on the team, I have very little say as to what the child's family or team should do. But it is so obvious to me that things need to change. What do you guys think? I would love to hear any comments or advice.

[Deleted User]

The taxes I have no problem with, my girls understand that they are self employed and pay thier own. They like it this way casue then they can write off the gas/millage, home office, telephone calls and courses etc. I have done this in the past and it works great and no hassels from the gov.

I am concerned about the liability part and will be calling my insurance agent for details on how this can work with out getting WCB involved. We all have tennent or house insurance.

I want to make sure that my therapists are covered in case (heaven forbid) something should happen them while working with my children.

[Guy Louie]

Re: Anonymous

You're entitled to your opinion but I would suggest that one should check with the CPP/EI ruling unit in CCRA since they're the one who will rule on whether or not you are an employee. And if you are actually considered an employee when you think you are a contractor there are penalties (just like if you didn't pay your taxes). You can appeal to the courts if you disagree with them.

And although many sources of income may be something they look at I highly doubt that having many sources of revenue necessarily makes one self-employed. If that is the case then all casual workers who work at say three or four fast-food outfits would consider themselves self-employed.

[Hetty Martin]

Now what to do??? Contract or no contract????

ARGH I hate this in so many ways, but my gut feeling is that I still like to have it on paper, so that things and expectations are clear and then we the therapists know what to except when we work with your children.

But then that me and I like my ducks in a row and no surprises!

I would love to have a poll just for the parents and therapists to see who has contracts and who says no way.

All in favour say "I"
All NOT in Favour say "NAY"
and then post if you are a therapist or parent.

[Deleted User]

Hetty, Hetty, Hetty — our votes don't mean squat. Talk it over with your consultant, your partner, hell your mom and dad if they're still around. If you want the paper, go ahead and make one — just don't call it a contract. Call it "The Eight Rules for Treating My Daughter/Son" (with apologies to W. Bruce Cameron).

"A Parent"

[Hetty Martin]

Now what to do??? Contract or no contract????

ARGH I hate this in so many ways, but my gut feeling is that I still like to have it on paper, so that things and expectations are clear and then we the therapists know what to except when we work with your children.

But then that me and I like my ducks in a row and no surprises!

I would love to have a poll just for the parents and therapists to see who has contracts and who says no way.

All in favour say "I"
All NOT in Favour say "NAY"
and then post if you are a therapist or parent.

[Deleted User]

Guy: I appreciate that you're a CA and all, but while you may have the theory of accounting and CCRA practices down fine, I'm not sure I would take your advice on this…no offense.

First of all, in my experience with the Tax Man, how they rule on things is often completely arbitrary and based on appearances, not case law. If it walks and talks and looks like an employee, they'll try to go that way. If it walks and talks and looks like a contractor, they'll go that way.

In my experience, one of the biggest dividing lines between employee or self-employed contractor is whether one has one source of revenue or several. In fact, CCRA staff have told me that's one of the biggest points they use to determine which side a person falls on. Few therapists work with only one child. In most other ways, they also have far more in common with practitioners such as OTs and speech paths, and neither of those are your employees when they deal with your child.

As for setting hours, you control the hours you visit the doctor or the OT or anyone else — within the limits of those professionals' calendars. Likewise for therapists. And that whole analysis of comparing therapists to construction contractors is completely off base. Does your consultant get to subcontract to any old person he or she chooses? Would you let your dentist tell you he's decided to fill your teeth with Silly Putty and actually he's going to let the shoe salesman next door do it because he once attended a dental lecture? No, it's absurd.

You are right that the presence or absence of a contract does not determine employee or contractor status, but you are wrong in supposing that therapists are employees. If you want to set yourself up as an employer with your therapists, that is your business, but I certainly have no intention of EVER going that route. My therapists bill me for their services and I pay those bills, exactly the same way I pay family dental bills, physiotherapy bills and any other service provided me by an independent contractor.

[Deleted User]

Regarding the good Doctor of Philosophy Stainton:

In all of your rebuttals of Sabrina's post, I see a lot of "I did not say that" and no mentions of what you claim to have actually said. In fact, reading through your post, I find little in the way of a concrete statement — just some feelgood quips and pleas for solidarity. Well, I'm sorry, but most of us here are skeptical of those who cooperate with government — and for pretty damn good reason. You want our trust? How about some clear statements of what you stand for and how you stand for it? Until then, your rebuttal is just so much warm air and I'm sorry, but my furnace works fine.

[Guy Louie]

Re: Contracts

I am a parent who has set up an ABA program for our son. Although I'm a C.A. and not a lawyer I'm concerned about a number of misconceptions regarding contracts and employer/employee relationships that have been posted.

1. A written contract does not determine what the business relationship is between you and the therapist. The relationship is determined on the facts and a written agreement cannot change that. i.e. you cannot have someone agree not to be an employee, if in fact he/she is an employee. So whether or not you have a written contract is not relevant in determining whether you are an employer.

2. Regardless whether you actually provide a written agreement also doesn't change the fact that there is still a contract between you and the therapist – whether a contract of services (employer-employee) or a contract for services (client-independent contractor).

3. Personally for me since there is already an implied contract, I might as well spell out what is expected of each parties so that there are no disagreements. Often I find that if it is not spelled out, parties are left to assume what the terms are and what each are expected to do. It just makes the business relationship work so much better when each knows what each will be responsible for. A contract need only set out in general terms the business relationship and need not go into the specifics of how the therapy will be carried out.

4. The test whether a person is an employee or self-employed is based on four factors: Control, Ownership of Tools, Chance of profit/risk of loss and Integration. These came out of a court case, Wiebe Door, many years ago and is still the case often cited in CPP/EI cases on the issue of employee vs. self-employed. As Parents we are not running a business so the last two factors, Chance of profit/risk loss and Integration do not have much relevance. However, for Control and Ownership of Tools the facts are: Parents, as the payers, control the hours worked, sets the quality of standards to be met, supervises and assesses the quality of the work, decides how the work is performed, decides on the work location, assigns the individual tasks, provides the ABA training for the therapists, and supplies the material (toys, puzzles, books, table, chairs, etc.) used for the training. All these factors point more towards a finding that a Parent is an Employer and Therapists are employees and not contractors. Contractors are usually contracted for a specific task but are left to decide on their own what they need to get the job done, how the work is performed including being allowed to subcontract the work, what material to use, and when they do it. True contractors generally have a set goal to meet (e.g. "paint your house") but have total freedom to decide when and how the work required is done. They can take time off if they want to as long as they complete the job as per the terms of the contract. I doubt if we would ever allow therapists that freedom to do as they wish and come and go as they please.

On the other hand the behavioural consultants, speech paths and OTs provide professional advice but do not actually carry out the day to day work so they are contractors like lawyers and accountants.

In my opinion, the therapists ARE employees and it is not possible to contract out of it by having the therapists agree that they are contractors. As employees they have certain Employee rights including a safe working environment and those can't be arbitrarily taken away by the parent. If they are injured on the job they can claim WCB and WCB may, if they determine you to be an employer, assess you for the premiums unpaid as well as recover the costs for compensation for the "employee" who was off the job. (WCB premiums are basically no-fault insurance for employers). Unfortunately that is the law and the bureaucrats will apply the law and assess CPP and EI, WCB if the relationship is in fact that of an employee even though you have an agreement with the therapist to be treated as contractor.

There is also an earlier post that suggests that therapists who work less than 15 hours/ week are considered self-employed and that anyone working minimal hours are considered contractors. I have never heard of such a cutoff and do not know where in law that such a cutoff is provided. There are many casual workers who work very few hours at any one particular place and no one would consider them to be self-employed. On the CCRA website there are a number of publications on employer-employee relationships http://www.ccra-adrc.gc.ca/E/pub/tg/rc4110/rc4110ed.html and one specifically on Employment Relationship Between People With Disabilities and Their Caregivers http://www.ccra-adrc.gc.ca/tax/individuals/taxkit2001/fs_caregivers-e.html. Nowhere in any of those publications can I find a reference that there is a cutoff of 15 hours before one is considered an employee. In fact reading the CCRA publication a babysitter most likely is considered an employee.

If there are any lawyers out there, please correct me if any of my comments are incorrect in law.

[Author]

Replies