[Deleted User]

I am getting extremely confused with respect to the lastest ruling on Government funding. Joyce, you have been considerably helpful with respect to this issue, however, I am personally not versed enough to know this latest court ruling (with respect to legalities etc) and how to defend it with the social worker. I have talked to her today and directed her to the website you provided. She scanned a few paragraphs and stated that from what she could gather on this is that the judgement is what the Government has been doing all along!! She figures if it hasn't allotted a $$$ amount then it doesn't mean much. I asked the question, then why has this gone to the appeals court in the first place? To fund the entire treatment plan regarless of cost. Is this not correct? No answer. Her suggestion to me today was to direct me to the new "individualized funding" that will be available to SOME families with disabilities in October. I have not yet looked this up and have no idea what this is. Has anyone heard of this as yet? How can we get someone to interpret exactly what this court ruling means? This feels like it could go on forever and famlies will never see relief. She also mentioned that I should direct my letter to the Minister himself for a response. Any info would be great. Thanks.

[Deleted User]

To Anonymous on Friday, September 19, 2003 – 07:53 pm:

You do not need to be personally versed or enough to know about the latest court ruling (with respect to legalities etc), to ask for 100% funding for your child. Simply ask for 100% funding, and back it up with copies of your bills.

Do not get into any discussion with your social worker as to what the Anderson court decision means. Her understanding of the decision is irrelevant no matter what happens. Do not try to defend it with the social worker, you have neither the time or the engery to do so, and why bother as she will not be making any decisions no matter what you say.

What the social worker thought when she read the Anderson case on the web is not important. All you need to do is put your request in writting. (copy my earlier letter or change it to suit your your needs), or write your own if you do not like mine.

I have not yet heard of any new funding program for October, but I do know that the government legal department is working on something.(Or at least, I was so told.) What it is they are working on, I do not know. Monday may be the deadline to file an appeal of the Anderson case, so I will be watching for that next week. An appeal may not hapen, as the Court of Appeal will uphold Auton in any case.

I may be writing to the Minister eventually, but I perfer to leave a paper trail of "refusals" or perhaps "the run around" by asking through the normal channels first. I may also write to the government legal department, but not yet.

Every letter I write, I will post on this Board, so that other parents with skills in different professions than mine can benefit from my efforts.

My letter that follows up on the first verbal reply that I received from my social worker will be written and posted by Monday. I will post all my letters immediately after sending it to the government.

Finally, do not let any government employee deter you from your objective of sending your letters higher and higher up the chain of comand, until there is no place else to go except to court. You can then go to court or choose not to at the last minute.

However, IF any money will be paid out by the government to families not involved in Anderson or Auton, it is likely to go first to the families that asked first, for the simple reason that they already have your paper work. The government is not likely to go out looking for additional families that have not asked for funding.

Joyce Dassonville GN LLB
Family Law and Health & Disability Law

Address:# 114 – 8532 120th Street
Surrey, British Columbia
V3W 3N5
Phone: (604) 598-8623
Fax: (604) 598-8624
Email: joyce@dassonvillelaw.ca
Web Page:www.dassonvillelaw.ca

[Deleted User]

I am getting extremely confused with respect to the lastest ruling on Government funding. Joyce, you have been considerably helpful with respect to this issue, however, I am personally not versed enough to know this latest court ruling (with respect to legalities etc) and how to defend it with the social worker. I have talked to her today and directed her to the website you provided. She scanned a few paragraphs and stated that from what she could gather on this is that the judgement is what the Government has been doing all along!! She figures if it hasn't allotted a $$$ amount then it doesn't mean much. I asked the question, then why has this gone to the appeals court in the first place? To fund the entire treatment plan regarless of cost. Is this not correct? No answer. Her suggestion to me today was to direct me to the new "individualized funding" that will be available to SOME families with disabilities in October. I have not yet looked this up and have no idea what this is. Has anyone heard of this as yet? How can we get someone to interpret exactly what this court ruling means? This feels like it could go on forever and famlies will never see relief. She also mentioned that I should direct my letter to the Minister himself for a response. Any info would be great. Thanks.

[Deleted User]

I am getting extremely confused with respect to the lastest ruling on Government funding. Joyce, you have been considerably helpful with respect to this issue, however, I am personally not versed enough to know this latest court ruling (with respect to legalities etc) and how to defend it with the social worker. I have talked to her today and directed her to the website you provided. She scanned a few paragraphs and stated that from what she could gather on this is that the judgement is what the Government has been doing all along!! She figures if it hasn't allotted a $$$ amount then it doesn't mean much. I asked the question, then why has this gone to the appeals court in the first place? To fund the entire treatment plan regarless of cost. Is this not correct? No answer. Her suggestion to me today was to direct me to the new "individualized funding" that will be available to SOME families with disabilities in October. I have not yet looked this up and have no idea what this is. Has anyone heard of this as yet? How can we get someone to interpret exactly what this court ruling means? This feels like it could go on forever and famlies will never see relief. She also mentioned that I should direct my letter to the Minister himself for a response. Any info would be great. Thanks.

[Deleted User]

To Stephen Paperman;
you are now the one out of line.
You surely mean well but are certainly creating dis-information.
Your last post is a blight.
The Behavior Analyst Certification Board is not a 'red herring' nor is it 'American', it is recognized internationally. It was created specifically to deal with a specific and pervasive problem – that charlatans with inadequate experience and credentials were passing themselves off as ABA consultants to profit from autistic children in need of treatment. The majority of people 'board certified' work with 'special needs' populations. That is also why they became certified, to provide a standard of quality and ethics to which they are accountable. Certification can be revoked for not practising to standard. The Board was established by leaders in the discipline of Behavior Analysis most of who contribute greatly to autism treatment.

It is ironic that you say that only Lovaas ABA is appropriate for children with autism but at the same time you state that you don't need to meet the educational and practical standards necessary to be certified as a Behaviour Analyst. You say you need only study 'Lovaas'.
Does using chemicals make me a chemist?
Does gardening make me a biologist?
Not.
Then how does studying or 'doing' Lovaas make you a Behavior Analyst?
It doesn't.
Yes their are certified behavior analysts out there who didn't study to work with autistic kids and they are hardly beating down my door or yours to work with our kids.
However their are also 'ABA' or 'Lovaas ABA' consultants who are too busy treating autistic kids to get certified. Hmmn.

Now if you really want people to stop 'experimenting' on kids with autism you could encourage all the non certified ABA practitioners to take a little time off from designing and managing programs programs for kids with autism and put some time into learning their discipline well enough to earn being 'certified'. Certainly anyone delivering Lovaas would do a more effective job of it by getting a formal education in behavior analysis as well.

[Deleted User]

I have been able to locate the complete list of all BCBA's in Canada.

Unfortunately there are none in British Columbia.

However, Kimberly Wroblewski in Vancouver is a BCABA. (Is she with EAP?) This catorization has a slightly less stringet qualification requirement than the BCBA.

Some of the other service providers in BC may be supervised by US based BCBA. I only know the qualifications of my own team, I am not familiar enough with other service providers to say anything about their qualifications.

Here is the list of Canadian BCBA, and BCABA's.

Canada Arnold-Saritepe Angela London Ontario BCBA
Canada Barrera Francisco Blenheim Ontario BCBA
Canada Cairns Colleen Kinston Ontario BCBA
Canada Cauley Kevin Mississauga Ontario BCABA
Canada Duda Michelle Enniskillen Ontario BCBA
Canada Guenther Shayna Toronto Ontario BCABA
Canada Hundert Joel Hamilton Ontario BCBA
Canada Walton-Allen Nicole Hamilton Ontario BCBA
Canada Wroblewski Kimberly Vancouver British Columbia BCABA

Joyce Dassonville GN LLB
Family and Health & Disability Lawyer

Address:# 114 – 8532 120th Street
Surrey, British Columbia
V3W 3N5
Phone: (604) 598-8623
Fax: (604) 598-8624
Email: joyce@dassonvillelaw.ca
Web Page:www.dassonvillelaw.ca

[Deleted User]

I have recently had the opportunity to speak/reply to numerous parents of children with autism. These parents phoned me (or emailed me directly) all seeing information.

One of the common themes I noticed was the lack of information available to parents on the appropriate qualifications for a consultant.

I have copied and pasted the American Behavior Analyst Certification Board published Standards for a Board Certified Behavior Analyst.

Canada/BC do not have any such Board.

The location where you live and the money you have (or can borrow), will clearly influence just who you can hire, or if you simply have to make up your own program. Nevertheless, the standards I have copied below should at least give parents some guideline as to what to compare the qualifications of perspective consultants too.

http://www.bacb.com/becom_frame.html

Revised Standards for Board Certified Behavior Analyst™ (BCBA®)

OPTION 1: Coursework/Experience
OPTION 2: Coursework/Experience/Portfolio
OPTION 3: College Teaching/Experience ­ Expired 6/30/2002, Reinstated 6/30/2003
OPTION 4: Instructor/Experience/Portfolio ­ Expired 12/31/2001

DEFINITIONS OF TERMS

CHANGES IN THE STANDARDS

Applicants are responsible for ensuring that they apply under the current BACB Standards. The current BACB Standards will be posted on the BACB website. The BACB Standards are subject to revision in the sole discretion of the BACB Board of Directors. Whenever possible, advance notice of any substantial standard changes will also be posted at this website (2002).

Eligibility to sit for the BCBA certification examination requires completion of Sections A and B below and compliance with all other rules and requirements of the BACB.

A. Degree Requirement: Possession of a minimum of a bachelor's and a master's degree from any of the following:

United States or Canadian institution of higher education fully or provisionally accredited by a regional, state, provincial or national accrediting body; or An institution of higher education located outside the United States or Canada that, at the time the applicant was enrolled and at the time the applicant graduated, maintained a standard of training equivalent to the standards of training of those institutions accredited in the United States.

B. Training and Experience Requirements

OPTION 1: Coursework/Experience

Coursework: The applicant must complete 180 classroom hours of graduate level instruction (see Definition of Terms below) in the following content areas and for the number of hours specified:
Basic behavior analytic principles – 45 hours
The application of behavior analytic principles and methods in applied settings – 45 hours
Single-subject research methods – 20 hours
Ethical and professional standards issues relevant to the practice of behavior analysis – 10 hours
Any other behavior analysis content area – 60 hours
Experience: The applicant must complete
18 months of Mentored Experience, or
9 months of Supervised Experience, or
A combination of a and b above.

Experience must include at least 20 hours per week, 80 hours per month, in behavior analysis. See definitions of Mentored and Supervised Experience in the Definition of Terms below. Possession of a doctorate degree from an institution that meets the requirements specified in Section A., with a dissertation that had behavior analysis as its central focus, may be substituted for 9 months of mentored experience.

OPTION 2: Coursework/Experience/Portfolio – Expires 12/31/2003

Coursework: The applicant must complete a total of 90 hours of acceptable graduate level instruction in behavior analysis consisting of the following:
60 hours in basic behavior analytic principles and the application of these principles in an applied setting;
20 hours in single-subject research methods; and
10 hours in ethical and professional standards issues relevant to the practice of applied behavior analysis

Experience: The applicant must complete
30 months of Mentored Experience, or
15 months of Supervised Experience, or
a combination of a and b above.
Experience must include at least 20 hours per week, 80 hours per month, in behavior analysis. See definitions of Mentored and Supervised Experience in the Definition of Terms below.
Possession of a doctorate degree from an institution that meets the requirements specified in Section A., with a dissertation that had behavior analysis as its central focus, may be substituted for 9 months of mentored experience.

Portfolio: The applicant must submit a documentation portfolio (see Definition of Terms below) of one case study completed during the experience.

OPTION 3: College Teaching/Experience – Expired 6/30/2002; Reinstated 6/30/2003

College Teaching: The applicant must complete a one-year, full-time faculty appointment in a tenure track position at a college or university (as described in Section A above) during which the applicant:
Teaches classes on basic principles of behavior, single-subject research methods, applications of basic principles of behavior in applied settings, and ethical issues; and
conducts and publishes research in behavior analysis.
Experience: The applicant must complete
18 months of Mentored Experience, or
9 months of Supervised Experience, or
A combination of a and b above. Experience must include at least 20 hours per week, 80 hours per month, in behavior analysis.

See definitions of Mentored and Supervised Experience in the Definition of Terms below. Possession of a doctorate degree from an institution that meets the requirements specified in Section A., with a dissertation that had behavior analysis as its central focus, may be substituted for 9 months of mentored experience.

OPTION 4: Instructor/Experience/Portfolio – Expired 12/31/2001.

Instructor: The applicant must be the primary instructor of a class covering basic principles of behavior, and the application of these basic principles in applied settings.

Experience: The applicant must complete
36 months of Mentored Experience, or
18 months of Supervised Experience, or
A combination of a and b above.
Experience must include at least 20 hours per week, 80 hours per month, in behavior analysis. See definitions of Mentored and Supervised Experience in the Definition of Terms below. Possession of a doctorate degree from an institution that meets the requirements specified in Section A., with a dissertation that had behavior analysis as its central focus, may be substituted for 9 months of mentored experience.

Portfolio: The applicant must submit a documentation portfolio (see Definition of Terms below) of three case studies completed during the experience.
Definitions of Terms

ACCEPTABLE COURSEWORK: Instruction of the type(s) specified in either a, b, or c, below, will be accepted toward the coursework requirement.

College or university courses in behavior analysis, that are taken from an institution that meets the requirements specified in Section A.
Non-college or university courses approved for this purpose by the State of Florida (subject to rules).
A combination of college or university courses and approved courses.
One semester credit is equivalent to 15 hours of instruction and one quarter credit is equivalent to 10 hours of instruction.
MENTORED EXPERIENCE: Acceptable mentored experience must meet all of the following conditions:

The applicant’s primary duties during the mentored experience are:
Designing, implementing and monitoring behavior analysis programs for persons and/or,
Overseeing the implementation of behavior analysis programs by others.
Mentored experience includes monthly contacts between the applicant and a mentor who either is a BCBA, or can meet the degree requirements and one of the coursework options for taking the BCBA examination. During the monthly contacts, the mentor discusses and evaluates the behavior analysis programs designed by the applicant.

The mentor is not the applicant's subordinate or employee during the mentored experience period. The mentor will not be considered an employee of the applicant if the only compensation received by the mentor consists of payment for mentoring.
SUPERVISED EXPERIENCE: Supervised Experience that meets the following criteria may be substituted for mentored experience on a 2 to one basis. One month of acceptable supervised experience is equivalent to 2 months of acceptable mentored experience, subject to the following conditions:
The applicant’s primary duties during the supervised experience are:
Designing, implementing and monitoring behavior analysis programs for persons and/or,
Overseeing the implementation of behavior analysis programs by others.
Supervised experience includes face-to-face meetings for at least two hours every two weeks between the applicant and a supervisor who either is a BCBA, or can meet the degree requirements and one of the coursework options for taking the BCBA examination. During supervision meetings, the supervisor discusses and evaluates the behavior analysis programs designed by the applicant.

The supervisor is not the applicant's subordinate or employee during the supervised experience period. The mentor will not be considered an employee of the applicant if the only compensation received by the supervisor consists of payment for supervision.
PORTFOLIO DOCUMENTATION: The applicant must document that the behavior analysis programs designed by the applicant were applied, behavioral, analytic, technological, conceptually systematic, generalized and effective relative to the definitions of these terms found in "Some Current Dimensions of Applied Behavior Analysis" by D. M. Baer, M. M. Wolf, and T. R. Risley (Journal of Applied Behavior Analysis, Volume 1, 1968).
If the applicant must submit a documentation portfolio, the portfolio should provide case studies completed during the experience period that includes:

Behavioral assessments that contain a functional assessment.
Behavior analysis programs based on these assessments.
Data displays related to these programs.
Behavior analysis program monitoring reports for these programs.

Joyce Dassonville GN LLB
Health & Disability Lawyer

# 114 – 8532 120th Street
Surrey, BC, V3W 3N5
Phone: (604) 598-8623
Email: (604) 598-8624
Web: http://www.dassonvillelaw.ca

[Deleted User]

I am writing this message in response to Monika, Sabrina, Laurie, and Stephen’s responses to my last post. To start, Monika and Laurie, I believe that you are miss-interpreting everything I say. I AM NOT targeting Sabrina for anything! I posted some of my ideas. Sabrina CHOSE to share her opinion on my ideas, and therefore I returned with my ideas on her ideas, etc. I believe that that is how this board works. If there is something in the rules that says that I am not to respond to anything that Sabrina has said because that is heresy, please let me know and I will stop! I apologies if you think that I do not respect Sabrina because I do. She has done a lot for children with Autism. I also apologies if this further offends you, but I think you need to read what I am writing, not make assumptions about my meaning. You will find that making assumptions is a very inefficient way of sharing info because you (vous) get over excited when really the other person is usually saying exactly what you (again vous) are saying (see my comments in the next paragraph). PS Laurie, I posted Anonymous to avoid the personal attacks that you seem to want to dish out, had you known my name. Even Sabrina pointed out that it is the issues that need to be discussed and clarified, not the people!

To Stephen and Sabrina, I complete agree with most of what you both wrote. I think that you managed to put it better than me, Sabrina, for you said exactly what I meant and no one disagreed with you! Support for families is necessary, and (I feel anyway) that the government, to remove any class or location disadvantages for families in remote communities, should fund it. You are also right that this should not come at the expense of medically necessary therapy (Lovaas – ABA). These are points that I never said I was in disagreement with. I was attempting to discuss the benefits of parental support, to Lovaas – ABA programs.

Now, a question I have, and maybe you can answer it Sabrina (as I am not too proficient at reading legalese). If the court determined that Lovaas – ABA is a medically necessary treatment, why is it being funded through MCFD, and not the Ministry of Health?

As for your comments on the abuse, I will give but one last comment on that. I completely understand that non-documented abuse is not provable! Don’t you see how the fact that abuse, in home-based ABA programs, is going undocumented and that is the problem? This leads to people being unaware of it, and therefore no one can do anything about it!

“…Patronizing attitude toward parents who live in the 'hinterland'” Here I have to say that I again agree with your comments. I was not being patronizing. The lack of services and education about the therapy that they SHOULD be getting is ridiculous. I also completely agree as to why they aren’t getting it, but that isn’t my point! My point is simply (as stated by you and agreed on by me above) that these parents do not have access to the supports that people in large communities have; therefore, they NEED parental support!

You stated: “Parents who are case managers don't need Gateway services Parents who function as the case managers for their children's Lovaas-type program do not need the "support" of Gateway because their consultants offer all the programming
and direction required. If they are unable or unwilling to follow through on their consultant's directions, then it's a near certainty they will not benefit from any Gateway parent education either.”

Well this is the only part of the message I dis-agree with. At present (hopefully not forever) there are not enough qualified ABA consultants, and the consultants are too expensive to provide one on one support to parents. If a parent is not ABLE (I will not disagree with you on the point of “unwilling”) to follow though, one on one support and education about Autism can provide them with the information in a way that is understandable to THEM. Like the concept of ABA, teaching the children in a way that they learn (i.e. discrete trial), so too should the parents be taught in a way that they can learn. We should not just dismiss them because they are not able to do what the typical population can do. Why shouldn’t we afford the parents the same courtesy you have fought so hard for, for their children? Now, if you show me (and this is not a challenge, merely a question) good double blind research showing that parental support is ineffective in helping parents, and that supporting parents has a direct negative impact on an ABA program (assuming that the support is willing to cooperate with the ABA consultant’s recommendations), I will not say another word about this!

Again, thank you for your input and I look forward to hearing what (constructive) things you have to say about these ideas. Also, Sabrina, I hope that you have only read my messages and not made assumptions about slandering you. If you have, I apologize!

Paradigm Anon

[Deleted User]

I am replying to Lou Arab.

At the time we started a Lovaas based ABA program with our daughter we were living in Dartmouth, Nova Scotia. We were extremely luckly and snapped up a young lady who had just moved to Nova Scotia from Alberta, (Edmonton,I think).
The therpist from Alberta started working with my daughter in 2000.

While in Edmonton this therapist worked under local consultants, supervised by 2 different consultants coming to Alberta from UCLA from time to time. She refered to her past experience in Alberta as "Autism Partnership". I may have been mistaken to think that was the same as EAP. I have no knowledge of the availability of EAP (or Autism Patnership) consultants in Alberta at this time.

The therapist left Alberta to move to Nova Scotia for personal/family reasons and was in our employ before any other families with autistic children even knew she was in town. She worked full time (40 hours) per week for us for 6 months and then she began training another therapist to take her place. She continued to work for us on decreasing hours per week until the fall before we left NS to move to BC. She did amazing work with our daughter, but unfortunately had no experience with older children, and there came a point in time where she did not have the expertise to continue with our daughter.

Joyce Dassonville GN LLB
Health & Disability Lawyer

Address:# 114 – 8532 120th Street
Surrey, British Columbia
V3W 3N5
Phone: (604) 598-8623
Fax: (604) 598-8624
Email: joyce@dassonvillelaw.ca
Web Page:www.dassonvillelaw.ca

[Deleted User]

When my daughter was first diagnosed, we also faced the language question. My first language is English and my husband's first language is French. Until the diagnosis, I spoke only English to my two daughter's (one autistic and one not) and my husband spoke only French to the two of them.

After the diagnosis, my husband switched to English for our autistic daughter and continued to speak French with our "normal" "typical" daughter.

We chose English for our autistic daughter for the following reasons:

1. My French was not as good as my husband's English.
2. We were living in an English province, and if Dominique was ever going to integrate into the community, English was the language she would need.
3. There was no possibility that we would ever move to a French speaking community.
4. At age 5, Dominique had virtually no language (three words), and it was clear to us that she was going to have enough difficulty learning one language, let alone two. Three years later, she still does not have full speech, in one language, and we do not believe that she would have learned as much speech as she has, if we had continued with two languages.

The family in question will have to weight the pros and cons, with the most important fact to consider being the child's chances and/or ability of learning two languages. The likelihood of the child having the ability to learn two languages or not, may influence the choice of the one language they choose for the child.

The questions that should be asked are, how old is the child, and what language skills does the child have now? Only after considering the answers to those questions and then comparing the answers to what language skills a "normal" "typical" child would likely have in similar circumstances, can the family even begin to "make their best GUESS" as to what the child's future language skills may be.

With only three words at age five, our “GUESS” as to Dominique’s ability to learn more than one language or not was not a difficult “GUESS” to make. The “GUESS” may not be as easy to make for children with a higher level of language at an earlier age.

Another consideration in the case referred too, may be the ability of the other family members to learn English and to speak it at home. This possibility may or may not be more likely than the child ever learning two languages.

I do not personally believe that any research is going to be of assistance here, as the individual child in question will be able to learn one or two languages or not, according to his own abilities, and just how profoundly autistic the child is. Donna Williams, an autistic adult in Australia, speaks at least two, maybe more languages. My daughter will be hard pressed to be totally fluent in one.

As Avery said in the last post, only the individual family can make the decision as to what will work and/or be best for the family and the child.

Joyce Dassonville GN LLB
Lawyer & Mediator

Address: # 114 – 8532 120th Street
Surrey, British Columbia
V3W 3N5
Phone: (604) 598-8623
Fax: (604) 598-8624
Email: joyce@dassonvillelaw.ca
Web Page: http://www.dassonvillelaw.ca

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